1.09.2009

ask a question.

well go ahead, ask!

31 comments:

CF said...

why

Lee said...

CF why

"Because" :-)

Lee said...

My question... "Who made God and what was there before God?"

Oops, two question... sorry :-)

Isn't this fun... but it is time to cook dinner - Lamb curry

Lee

Lee said...

I forgot to add an e-mail follow up. Silly me

suburban_dissident said...

actually Lee, that is one question phrased in two different ways.

Lee said...

Thanks suburban_dissident, I've not broken the rules then of one question.

I don't suppose this thread is going to offer answers on the questions is it?

CF said...

LEE: I don't suppose this thread is going to offer answers on the questions is it?

Depends...will just any answer do?

CF said...

LEE: My question... "Who made God and what was there before God?"

Who is supposed to answer this? Anyone?

CF said...

By the way...Lee, I just showed my wife your picture (if that's really you). She says, "Oh wow, he kinda looks like Jesus."

Lee said...

Hi CF

RE: " I don't suppose this thread is going to offer answers on the questions is it?"

CF: Depends...will just any answer do?

he he… of course not :-)

Only answers that can be falsified – either logically or by observation :-)

If you tell me Heaven is 'blue coloured', I want to know how you know this 'fact'

RE: "My question... "Who made God and what was there before God?"

CF Who is supposed to answer this? Anyone?

The first question to ask could be is my question actually valid? Well, if it is deemed 'fair' (valid?) to ask "what came before the Big Bang?" and the response from the theist is 'God" – then my question is as valid and fair by the same logic isn't it?

Glad I got that out of the way

As for who is to answer it…. Well, either God Himself or mankind I guess… since mankind cannot agree on whether there is a God, or what to call him/her/them - it looks like I am waiting for a miracle from the man Himself, or herself or themselves...

CF By the way...Lee, I just showed my wife your picture (if that's really you).

Assuming you are referring to the picture on my blog of a long haired bearded hippy… yes, that's me for my sins :-)

She says, "Oh wow, he kinda looks like Jesus."

He he…I'll take that as a compliment.

Though I have to wonder if Jesus likes Heavy Metal music? I was told it was the devil's music after all? :-)

Lee

CF said...

LEE: The first question to ask could be is my question actually valid? Well, if it is deemed 'fair' (valid?) to ask "what came before the Big Bang?" and the response...blah, blah, blah..."

He he he! WHOA slow down bud! I meant 'anyone' as in any of the Christians who post on this blog. I'm only asking because Ryan opened this thread of asking him a question!

Lee said...

He he he! WHOA slow down bud!

I got carried away again did I?

It will not be the last time :-)

Lee

ryan said...

Lee,

Though I have to wonder if Jesus likes Heavy Metal music? I was told it was the devil's music after all? :-)

i love metal and hardcore myself and i am convinced that Jesus likes styles of music, its the subject matter that counts! =) this is a link to my favorite band, awesome stuff! http://www.myspace.com/warofages

ryan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ryan said...

ohhh yes and i have a question.

your asking where God came from and i fully admit this is not something that i, nor anyone else, can answer.

that's not my question, clearly. the question is, what made the big bang possible? what was the driving force that created the necessary elements (out of nothing?) to make it all happen?

on a side note you should check out that band, great stuff. if nothing else we may have the same music tastes.

take it easy.

Lee said...

Hi Ryan,

i love metal and hardcore myself

I'm an aging 'thrasher'… but that style was dead 15 odd years ago :(

I remember as a child a style called 'hardcore'… but then the dance-bleep-bleep brigade stole the name from 'us'. (You're not talking about bleep-bleep 'music' are you?)

I think hardcore then became 'death metal'… which I can say I like the music, but I like to hear the words so I dislike most versions of it.

(Also, on a side note, since I don't believe in God, neither do I believe in all that silly devil worship stuff and the devil taking over the world… still, Venom "At War with Satan" was a classic (and long) song I enjoyed when I was about 13. I take the death metal subject matter with a pinch of salt and see it like I do bad horror movies.)

and i am convinced that Jesus likes styles of music, its the subject matter that counts! =)

Ah, you may not like some of my music then… :)

One of my favourite bands (when they were still going with the original singer) was a 'Folk Metal' band called Skyclad… the original singer was a bit of a pagan and didn't like Christianity since he saw it as an invading idea that killed off his beliefs and people with the sword (or something like that)

They are on Myspace it seems, just searched them, but only the new singer (shame)

Of the songs on MySpace, my fav is "Another drinking song"

Off on a tangent with the pagan stuff – the book 'Way of Wyrd' by Brian Bates is a great work of fiction that tells a story of a Christian monk trying to learn (and then convert) the Pagan English. Though it does 'suggest' that the Pagan's were right (with their gods and beliefs) and Christian wrong, so maybe you will not like it.

www.wayofwyrd.com

this is a link to my favorite band, awesome stuff! http://www.myspace.com/warofages

Cool... a bit of a Killswitch engage style...

on a side note you should check out that band, great stuff. if nothing else we may have the same music tastes.

It is closer to my wife’s style (I’m old fashioned)... however, I like it. I could 'dance' to it :-)

Funny old world... I always seem to find metalheads.

ohhh yes and i have a question

your asking where God came from and i fully admit this is not something that i, nor anyone else, can answer.


Indeed, and that is really my point.

I don't know, and you don't know either…

The difference might be that I freely admit that?

thats not my question,

Hey, how many questions are you allowed?

Teacher, Ryan is cheating!!! :-)

cleary. the question is, what made the big bang possible? what was the driving force that created the nessecary elements (out of nothing?) to make it all happen?

I can answer this many ways… but you know my first answer (as I have said it before)

I don't know…

However, you have already stated that you don't know the answers to my God questions, so why are we so different?…

We both have unknowns.

I just have one less than you :-)

I 'only' have to explain what caused the Big Bang (and I could give you many philosophical 'guesses' – it will not be science until it can be tested, but the ideas are based on the learning gain from science)

You have to explain what caused God and how He caused the Big Bang (and dare I ask why did He did this?).

Why insert another unknown like God? Can you justify this additional unknown?

Oh, I know what you will say with how I worded this… (maybe)…

God doesn't 'need a cause', to which I will of course respond that this is 'special pleading'.

I could equally (and with observational justification) say that since not everything needs a cause (and your claim God doesn't confirms you agree to this in principle)
So the question then is why does the universe 'need' a cause?

I would remove God from 'the equation'… after all, God has not been shown to be required and merely introduces further questions as I shown.

So, we are right back into the first cause argument…

Happy to discuss this further, but could you first read (if you have not already) my earlier comments on this subject that I gave on the thread 'so where…'.

I say this not because I wish to avoid the discussion (which I enjoy really) merely that you actually have an advantage over me I want you to use – that is, I have already written much of my ideas down already. You thus have the opportunity to spot the errors of my thinking before I repeat them.

I really do want to know where I am going wrong and would appreciate it

Anyway, here is what I wrote to CF a little while ago.

----- quote ----
"The first cause argument fails for so many reasons.

Firstly, it is an inductive argument, and how many universe have you seen form?

Secondly, you rely on special pleading... i.e. the universe must have a cause, but God does not. It's a logical fallacy and so fails as a proof. Can you justify your assumption without special pleading? Nope... of course not.

Thirdly, it is only an argument for deism – even IF I accept the argument it does not prove a theistic God, one that interacts with the universe and you follow.

The argument is of no use to what you are claiming (even if valid, which I have already said it is not)

How about THAT for being brief?

Oh, if you want to read more... try over at my blog – I've labelled a few posts with 'first cause'

http://strawmen-cometh.blogspot.com/
search/label/first%20cause

I've gone into detail there about the physics, cause and effect and infinity.

Tell me if it makes any sense?"

----- end quote ----

I think Ryan, at the end we probably will have to agree that we have come a bit of an impasse with the 'first cause argument' since for me it is an unjustified argument (but you can show me wrong if you like)

As I hinted at before, I could say I accept the conclusions of the argument… this would make me a deist (and not a theist).

For sake of argument, we could move on from there… my 'deistic god' started the Big Bang (by some mysterious and unknown means) and then never interactive further with our universe… the known physical laws do get us from the smallest fractions of a second after the Big Bang to today (and I could really bore you with some of the details)

For me to move from a belief in deism into theism, would still require a new argument (and dare I dream) evidence.

So you see, I hope, why I am not convinced when a Christian uses the first cause argument. I could add more, but that is enough for one hit I think.

'Rock On'

Lee

CF said...

Lee. I read on one blog the other day that many atheists hate the terms that imply creation through "accident" or "randomness". Why is that?

Lee said...

Hi CF,

At last a easy question...

I read on one blog the other day that many atheists hate the terms that imply creation through "accident" or "randomness". Why is that?

Maybe because those words are misleading and are used to confuse.

The process that got us to where we are today is not, was not random. The physical laws are not random, if they were then they could not be understood and the field of science would not exist.

One day you drop a ball it will fall, another day it will raise... that would be randomness.

The term ‘randomness’ is normally used to discredit the theory of evolution – it fails because it is a strawman argument. The theory does not say the process is random but guided by natural selection which is anything but random – thats the point. Mutations are random (in the most part) but that is different.

As for accident... it suggests no purpose I guess. Not too sure of the hang up on that term. ‘We’ humans are here by ‘accident’ in the sense that if a huge lump of rock didn’t hit the Earth 65 million years ago to wipe out the dinosaurs (or whatever was the cause), ‘we’ mammals will still be hiding in holes like rats.

If my now wife didn’t like my bad ‘pick up line’ (chat up line) all those years ago – my sons would not exist... they are here then by accident, a fluke.

Hope that helps a little – maybe others can offer their ideas also.

Lee

CF said...

LEE: If my now wife didn’t like my bad ‘pick up line’ (chat up line) all those years ago

Poor girl. She never had a chance did she?! ;->

CF said...

LEE: As for accident... it suggests no purpose I guess.
‘We’ humans are here by ‘accident’

Do humans have purpose?

Lee said...

Poor girl. She never had a chance did she?! ;->

I think the beer helped :-)

I think my line was something like "The music is rubbish in here isn't it? I remember when it was good" – Prodigy I think was the song.

I need to ask the wife.

Lee said...

CF Do humans have purpose?

Yes, but a purpose of our own making.

Unless you can show me othewise :)

CF said...

LEE: Yes, but a purpose of our own making.
Why did you clarify that statement in that way?

Lee said...

RE: "CF Do humans have purpose?
LEE: Yes, but a purpose of our own making."

Why did you clarify that statement in that way?

I think in my rush to respond – I missed your point, and answered my own.

Oops… happens a lot with me.

I understood the question to be of the type "what is your purpose in life"… a personal question.

Hence my response, my purpose/reason is of my own making.

Or, as my son told me last night, that I have to go to work so I can buy toys (an idea he got from my wife I might add)

This is my purpose, to work in order to buy toys - at least in the eyes of a 3 year old.

If you are talking about the race of humans as a whole… not sure that we do have a purpose, I've not seen any – we have a responsibility (given the 'power' we have discovered or evolved into), but that isn't the same thing.

Ask me again in 5 billion years – the Sun would have shown the 'purpose' of the Earth by then I am tipping :-)

Lee

CF said...

LEE: we have a responsibility
So the race in general doesn't have purpose...what are your thoughts on that?

Responsibility...isn't that something given out? What is our responsibility(ies)?

Lee said...

So the race in general doesn't have purpose...what are your thoughts on that?

I’ve already answered this… the purpose is one that we give our selves.

My son tells me my purpose is to go to work so I can buy toys.

Responsibility...isn't that something given out? What is our responsibility(ies)?

To my children, and my children’s children?

My fellow humans?

To life on this planet?

Lee

ryan said...

all noble things Lee and extremely valid, however, why not commit to something that extends beyond one's own self?

Lee: Because there is no tangible proof to believe in that, which you suggest, that I cannot see?

why do i ask these things? :)

Lee said...

Hi Ryan

all noble things Lee and extremely valid, however, why not commit to something that extends beyond one's own self?

None of my responses included me... so I do not understand what you are saying - 'beyond one's own self'?

You would rather me to commit to something that has never been observed by me?

Lee: Because there is no tangible proof to believe in that, which you suggest, that I cannot see?

Did I say that?

why do i ask these things? :)

Don't know... you are confusing me now.

Have to go

Lee

David Clark said...

Lee,
"Though I have to wonder if Jesus likes Heavy Metal music? I was told it was the devil's music after all? :-)"



I love metal..
always have, always will.
as i lay dying, war of ages, extol, crimson moonlight, evroklidon, horde, Immortal souls, etc, etc, etc,

gotta love some old school tough guy hardcore too !!!


-David

David Clark said...

I used to sing for Winter Solstice back in the day. they are on metal blade now, or well used to be until they broke up...

ryan..you going to As I Lay Dying on the 31st?

CF said...

LEE: Cool... a bit of a Killswitch engage style...
I was playing "Burnout: Paradise City" last night cause that's what spiritual people like me do. I heard Killswitch Engage on the soundtrack. If you like them you may enjoy my friends band Revision 9. Check them out...I'd be interested to know what you guys think.