9.18.2008

On atheism

When an atheist, or an anti-theist, speaks in defence of his/her belief my faith in Jesus Christ strengthens that much more. What is extremely sobering about atheism is the complete lack of substance in any degree and the praise of one's self. If there is no God why live? Another way of saying it; what is there to live for? Atheism, or anti-theism, is the desire to escape accountability of one's own actions. If there is no God to whom do I answer to? Says the atheist. Little do they realize that's it absolute freedom in Christ vs. absolute oppression, as God is so often portrayed.

I also firmly believe that the person who does not believe in God, and makes that fact known, is closer to Christ then they realize. Think about it. If you have ever seen a fight or have had the unfortunate time of being in one, you know that you must be close to your enemy to fight them. The person who tells everyone that they hate God or that God does not exist must, in figurative terms of course, sit in the lap of God in order to slap Him in the face. This brings up yet another issue.

In the book, "God is not great; How religion poisons everything" the author Christopher Hitchens writes, "I hate God and God hates me." I find this interesting. How can you hate something, someone, or even the idea of something if you don't believe that that "something" even exists? And how can that non-existent something hate you if that something does not exist? See, I think atheist's shouldn't have a single thing to say about God. How can you if you don't believe in it? Not just that you don't believe in it but that you don't think there is even anything to believe in!!! How does this make sense?

And this is what we as Christians must approach with grace and understanding. Understanding in that we can't and shouldn't expect a person to live by the standards of God if they are not God's child. This is the world and time that we live in.

11 comments:

Samuel Skinner said...

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=126767

Here is a hint- if you believe in something after it has been shown to be false, that isn't a sign of faith- that is a sign of obliviousness to reality.

As for who I answer to, and to whom I am responsbile to... that would be myself.

The truth does not have to be pleasent- all it has to be is fit reality.

It also appears you fail to concieve of the idea of metaphor... wait, that is Hitchens. Let me explain it to you- the man hates totalitarianism. He would hate a God- any God- if it exists for what it stands for- a complete and total domination of everything. The biblical God is simply particularly egregious.

ryan said...

I wish that I could reply directly to you Sam but I can't. I do however thank you for your insight and would like the chance to further "discuss" the matter.

Aspentroll said...

Ryan Says:
"What is extremely sobering about atheism is the complete lack of substance in any degree and the praise of one's self. If there is no God why live? Another way of saying it; what is there to live for? Atheism, or anti-theism, is the desire to escape accountability of one's own actions. If there is no God to whom do I answer to?

I am 74 years old and have
been a non-believer for as long as I can remember. And I have never contemplated suicide because of my non-belief in god(s). You must either be very young or
have been totally protected
by living in some monastery
away from life's realities.

I have everything to live for and do so without belief in any god(s). I am accountable for my actions just as any one else would be because I was taught morality by parents who were not "god fearing" in any way. The Criminal codes of Canada and the US are reason enough not to commit any crimes. God doesn't enter into it for me at all.

It seems to me that even the most devout can do
just as many serious crimes as any unbeliever, the newspapers will verify that statement. All the Catholic Priests, Ted Haggert, the daily parade of Pastors who steal from their parishioners and molest their children to mention a few are all worse than I have ever been in my life. So don't tell me that
I need someone to answer to
other than myself. Freedom
in Christ vs. oppression, you mean the imaginary guy whose story was made up by the Roman Church in 325 CE?
You bleat the same BS that all the fundies propose, Get a life.

ryan said...

If you don't agree with me that's one thing, but why so angry? I find this interesting. I am not angry with you or towards because you are an atheist, so why are you angry at me for being a Christian? I have not, nor will I ever, murder someone in the name of my faith. People that do that aren't right in there "faith" or mentally. So again, why so angry?

Rune said...

See, I think atheist's shouldn't have a single thing to say about God. How can you if you don't believe in it?

You are absolutely correct. The abstract idea of god disappears when people, like yourself, stop talking about it.

Atheists merely comment and question a concept brought to life by followers of religion. Without this, atheists would not talk about god.

It would be nonsense to do so, as god does not exist.

ryan said...

The abstract idea of god disappears when people, like yourself, stop talking about it.

The exact same could be said about anything. Its very curious to me that you desire for me to stop talking about my beliefs, but if I were to shun you from your beliefs you would accuse me of being a close minded A typical Christian. Please correct me if I am at all wrong.

dustin said...

Interesting post Ryan. I think the issue that seems to rise with your post is that people take these issues personally. Your making a generalization, but each one of the commenters seem to take what you said as a personal attack on them. There is nothing wrong with your generalization because your referring to the IDEA of atheism and not the atheist specifically. The belief or "non belief" is the issue...NOT each individual person.

Samuel,

You say, "after it has been shown to be false", but I ask you what are you referring to? If Christianity, then I would ask you if it is proven false why do we celebrate it...and I'm not referring to Christians. Politicians, gov't agencies, etc. I'm not saying we follow Christianity because they say it is ok, but I am saying that many people, not just Christians,
cling to a belief and a belief can't be proven false. It cannot be proven false to the believer, but if an onlooker chooses not to believe that is his choice. Your truth can fit your own reality just like ours. We will find out one day which is true. You are absolutely allowed to have your own opinion...as is Ryan.

Aspentroll

Your absolutely right that even the most devout men/women can have serious crimes. That applies to Christians and non-Christians incase you felt like sticking it solely onto Christians.

The issue with what Ryan is talking about is accountability not out of obligation, but for personal prowess and growth. Whether you like it or not you ARE obligated to people in the very least. You are obligated to Canadian police, gov't etc. Do you pay taxes? Do you speed when you shouldn't? You are accountable to authorities even though you don't want to be. Just because you might not have problems with that authority does not mean you are accountable to some authority.

Freedom in Christ vs oppression is that even though we are held to the same authority structures that you, but we add One. One that guides us and helps us in other things. That is for us to decide, and not to you whom we run to at the end of the day. I saw your blog, albeit short, and you took a stand against Christianity, but not to any other religions. Goes back to what Ryan said about the fight. You, atheist/humanist, choose which battles you fight. If religions are all "false" then why single out Christianity? It is as if you are fighting against something that you don't think is there....interesting

Rune

It is so funny to say something doesn't exist. I know you have probably heard this answer from other Christians, but you cannot prove something doesn't exist. Unless you are everywhere at once there is no possible way to prove the un-existence of something. The biggest issue with Christianity and atheism is that we aren't going to stop talking about it...just like you won't.

The great thing though is that our hope is in someone other than ourselves. It is truly selfish to only look inward. I'm not attacking you, but to me it is a sad fact when you can't get outside the body you live in to find true joy in something other than yourself. Things can bring us joy outside of God...but I guess you can't prove joy either because it is just another emotion as you might say belief in Christianity is. Interesting...

You enjoy throwing your attacks back. All I know is that to err is human...humanists ;-)

dustin
endurelife.com

Rune said...

Hi there Dustin,

Using your comment as a baseline, there must be a teapot out in the universe then. You cannot disprove it's existence using your logic, even although it is purely a device for intellectual discussion.

I don't take attacks on atheism personally. Unlike followers of a religious belief, atheists are not in an organisation. We share the same conviction that there are no gods, christian or otherwise. But apart from that we don't hang about together. I'd go further and say that we shouldn't.

If I were to suddenly change this view and adopt a religious view of the universe why should I choose Christianity over the Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime?

Actually the burden of proof is with with you Dustin. Can you show me God? Where is he?

If you say he is in the trees or the sunshine in a baby's smile, this simply won't do - it is not evidence.

I enjoy a full ethically moral life, it hasn't been that difficult to achieve. I certainly don't need to take moral guidance from a hate filled book about a man-made, vengeful god.

Here's something to think about. if everything is part of god's plan, why do christians demonstrate outside abortion clinics? These abortions are part of gods plan (as he exists in your mind) By demonstrating, are these people not questioning god's plan?

If god commanded you to kill your child, through some method of personal revelation, would you disobey him?

dustin said...

Rune,

Your absolutely right...there maybe a teapot out in the universe. I have no argument with the thought that it can't be disproven. The burden of proof is not with me. You decide your own beliefs just as you have. Your belief is that there is no God, Christian or otherwise. I have proved my burden of proof to myself, and that is all I am responsible for. I am not here to explain God for how can you explain something unexplainable? It is up to Him to reveal Himself to people and then it is up to them to believe or not.

I know Atheism isn't an "organisation" I don't consider it such. What I was saying is your general convictions tend to be similar and that is what Ryan was addressing.

Christianity over the Austrailian Aboriginal Dreamtime...You can pick that or anything you want. Not Ryan nor I am trying to force anything into you. FYI not all Christians believe that protesting outside clinics, gay rights rallies etc is a good thing. I actually don't believe that whatsoever. I didn't see that in the life of Jesus. If anything Jesus attacked the religious view of God and promoted the freedom they were lacking.

I am not against everything...I am FOR people. I am for people getting saved. My responsibility as a Christian is not to change people. That is God's job. My responsibility is to be true to who God has made me to be. Don't throw us all in a box and say, "why do christians demonstrate outside abortion clinics?" because the majority don't do that. You see it because some crazies went and killed the doctors etc.

And everything isn't part of God's plan. God's plan is no sin whatsoever, but is there sin? Yes, absolutely and that is because of our free will. The bible talks about the fact that God doesn't want anyone to perish, but he isn't going to force His love on anyone or His desired lifestyle for us all. God isn't sitting up in Heaven running the world. He helps things and allows us to make our own decisions. What we do with that is up to us.

If God commanded me to kill my child through a "revelation" it would not be God. It is perfectly clear that we need to love each other and not kill. If your going to throw the old testament story of Abraham you don't understand the story. The story wasn't about him actually killing His son it was about obedience. God stopped it because he didn't want him to kill His son.

I'm sad that you think the bible is a book filled with hate. No because you think that, but because of the implications it carries. Although you think it is a hate story to me and many others it is a story of love and restoration. I know we are going to disagree with that, but part of the reason you think that is because your view of God is skewed. You have no view of God beyond your understanding. You think I need evidence to prove my God, but I don't. That is why it requires faith. There are numerous things that reveal God and I'm not going to say a babies smile or things like that. God has revealed Himself to me in different ways...all of which are based out of a love and belonging. If you say a crutch then fine a crutch, but this crutch is what I cling to because it is my life support. Weakness? Sure I'll be called weak because my weakness magnifies his strength.

God let's you make up your mind about Him and every other thing. There is no forced love from His view.

On a side note...I'd like to apologize to you on behalf of Christians who have given you a bad picture of God. For all the awful movies, and shows that show Christians with no love or compassion for people. I try to live MY life inspired by the love that I see in God. Take it or leave it that is up to you, but I am sorry that Christians have done such a poor job portraying such a wonderful God.

Dustin

Rune said...

It has been good to talk to you Dustin. I don't want to get into endless circular arguments, because it always seems to end in unfriendliness.

Lets just agree to disagree.

All the best.

Rune

dustin said...

Right back at you Rune...Just so you know I didn't take anything you said as an offense and I hope you didn't either.

Dustin